Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, welcome. In this podcast, we talk B2B marketing and what it takes to know your customer innovate and profit. We're glad you made it. This is the campaign by 97th floor.
Hello everyone and happy Friday. I'm Paxton Gray and this is The Campaign, a B2B podcast about how to know your audience innovate beyond best practice and profit. Today we're talking about SEO and the big changes coming up in 2025. There's a lot happening, a lot of changes that we need to prepare for.
People in marketing strategy should have their eyes on this because some big changes are coming down the pike.
In my discussions and research and what we're seeing with clients, there are four major areas from what we see, where people should be thinking about moving forward in terms of strategy.
Some of these are tangentially related to SEO and some are directly impact SEO. But number one is going to be content consolidation. So the play has been for a couple years is use AI to just spam Google as much as possible, get as much content out there to kind of ridiculous points. And what we're seeing major like ranking factors are going to be engagement. And with that mass amount of content that's lower quality, engagement metrics are falling through the floor and rankings are falling through the FL floor. So our big focus is consolidating content, actually producing less but higher quality. So it means actually more investment in content, although the actual number of pages potentially can go down. So but focusing on higher quality. So number one, number two, focusing on LLM optimization, which I'd love to dive in with our guest today about this, talk a little bit more. It's kind of the wild west and the unknown figuring that out. Number three is improving engagement and so we're consolidating that content and then we're getting engagement metrics to go up. So a huge factor for this is going to be correct calls to action that match the right stage in the funnel. Too many brands in the B2B space are going straight bottom funnel for all their content, no matter where that content sits in the funnel. And that's going to cause engagement metrics to go down and overall conversions to go down. So creating a strong healthy mid funnel is going to be really important, both from just an SEO standpoint as well as overall conversion standpoint. And the number four is a little bit more ethereal. But putting message before channels.
The typical mindset in the digital marketing space is to think channel first and then say what's our message here? But what we should do is Go back and say, what does our audience need? What is the message that we want to hit them with? And now how are we going to play these channels in the way to communicate that message? And so those are our focuses moving forward. And I'd love to talk to our guests about these and other changes happening in 2025 in the SEO space.
So to that end, today we're joined by SEO maven Nick Leroy. Nick is a freelance SEO consultant who works with enterprise companies to drive organic growth. He's also the founder of SEOjobs.com and and creator of SEO for Lunch newsletter delivering actionable insights to SEO professionals weekly. Nick, thank you for joining us today.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: Thank you so much, pax, and I'm really excited for this conversation.
[00:03:25] Speaker A: So let's dive right in. Nick, you have, you know, you've been doing SEO for a long time. And tell me, first off, scale of 1 to 10, how big do you anticipate the changes this year happening in the SEO space?
[00:03:39] Speaker B: Oh, I love that question. What a great way to start off this conversation. I think 2025 is going to bring the most controversy and change to the SEO space than we've ever seen before. And I've been in the SEO space for about 15 years. I've gone through the Penguin and the Pandas for those that are familiar with that core updates. I mean, all this stuff required shifting and, and adjusting, but I think in 2025, it's a true pivot. Just like you were mentioning with some of the recommendations, we are not going to necessarily be optimizing in a silo anymore. I don't think SEO should also be measured exclusively by default channel dragged down to organic search. And I know this is where we're going to talk a little bit more, but yeah, so I think with that, 2025 is going to bring up a lot of change.
[00:04:33] Speaker A: Yeah. To that end, you had a post that you wrote on LinkedIn a while ago talking about expectation from the SEO channel and how it's measured classically. I won't give the post away. Tell us if you could summarize that thought.
[00:04:48] Speaker B: Absolutely. So my hot take for 2025, that's caused a little bit of a stir is that flat SEO performance is actually a win in 2025. And what I mean by that is not that we as marketers should expect not growing as a success metric, but a lot of people don't understand that the same efforts that you're putting into to maintain those same rankings are resulting in less clicks. So we know about the AI Overviews. We know about paid search, we know, we know about how Google is changing their search results and now we're adding in LLMs who are starting to take little tiny bites away from search market share. So again, in a world where if you can maintain the same level of performance as you did last year, that actually will represent growth despite the fact that it from a data perspective, it'll look flat, slightly down or slightly up.
[00:05:55] Speaker A: So I'd imagine that's going to be pretty hard to measure the true growth being provided by the actions that SEOs are taking. Do you have any thoughts around how we might change measurement of performance on that channel?
[00:06:08] Speaker B: Yeah, Pax, I think this is a great conversation for us to be having. I'm glad you brought it up. I think what we really need to focus on. I mentioned this earlier. Historically, you know, all 15 years that I've done SEO performance has been measured exclusively through the attribution of the organic channel. I think we have to do a better job of treating organic search as just organic growth, meaning it is not just what is displayed in your analytics account in organic search. Because all that content you're creating, all the optimizations you're doing should be viewed as a campaign. It's going to help your paid search be more efficient. It's going to give you additional content to repurpose for email and it's also going to give you content for like social media. Historically, SEO has never gotten credit for that. That's all another channel. And I think the days of reporting on single channel success need to be gone. Like attribution is going to be our enemy as we try to get more and more granular data.
[00:07:17] Speaker A: I love that.
[00:07:17] Speaker B: What do you think?
[00:07:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. And I think that kind of goes along a little bit with the message before channel approach.
It might be kind of interesting to measure the success of a particular message to say, what kind of exposure do we have from this across all channels? What kind of conversion and engagement do we have on this message, this messaging or this campaign across all the channels that it ran on? Because then that would have some pretty clear or better understanding, I guess, of how those are all operating together.
I am interested in learning more about optimizing for LLMs and I've been doing some research on that and some experimenting and unfortunately, I guess, or fortunately most of what I can find is a lot of the similar tactics in SEO.
There's it's not 100% overlap, but a lot of it is similar with a big focus on mentions and getting Your brand mentioned.
[00:08:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:20] Speaker A: Have you found anything different on that front?
[00:08:23] Speaker B: No. I mean, and it's really interesting because it does. It brings you kind of back to the simple days, if you will, or even like local SEO with like, the nap and citations, you know. But yes, what I have heard, and this makes a lot of sense. So we know that all these LLMs are spending a lot of money and resources essentially crawling the Internet because they're looking to get consensus to various answers. So if we are mentioned across the Internet, you know, hopefully on even more authoritative sites, then that will give these LLMs consensus on your brand being the solution, you know, to someone's queries, whether it be, you know, start with your branded queries. How are we being really consistent with our messages, you know, our founding date, you know, any revenue that we're earning, you know, things that people might be looking for, CEO name and then worry about, you know, how do I show up as the best, you know, coffee company in Seattle?
[00:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I. I wonder if it's. If we're actually taking a step back in, in terms of complexity, simultaneously making it more complex. But I've been seeing some rankings. Like there's this design agency, and if you search best design agency, they are mentioned as one of the best. And you look at the sources that it's pulling from, and it pulls from an article that lists a bunch of design agencies and they're listed as number one.
But it turns out that that article was made by them and is hosted on their site, which no way that would fly in the traditional, like, Google sense. They wouldn't, you know, give that more credibility. But the LLMs don't operate the same way. And so I think the big question is how does it determine what is authoritative and when? Classically, we've relied on links as kind of the indicator of what is and is not authoritative. You know.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: Yeah. I'd be curious, Pax, if this is going to be kind of reliving the life of, like, private blog networks.
[00:10:32] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:10:33] Speaker B: Anyone who isn't familiar with it, people would create a series of web properties that they would own simply for the purpose of linking back to their commercial sites so that they could rank better. You know, Google has gotten better. There certainly is opportunity to still do it, but Google is getting better at identifying these things where now I think that is going to be the new hack, if you will, for LLM, you know, optimization, because we don't care. You know, LLMs have not come out and said anything along the lines of like a no Follow attribute or followed attribute, meaning some links or citations provide more value than the other. So it only makes sense that people that are going out of their way will be reaching out to big companies, buying an advertisement or getting included in a top 10 list, because that is the information that LLMs are scraping. And I think that's how people are going to manipulate it until they get more and more sophisticated and kind of do a Google thing where it's like Wikipedia kind of is tied to the knowledge graph. So what kind of things are going to tie directly to an LLM as top resources?
[00:11:47] Speaker A: Right. I'd love to shift a little bit into going back to that point about just producing massive amounts of content, AI generated content, typically lower quality content. There are a large number of examples where that is working for brands.
Our position is that's not going to work long term or even that much longer, like in the short term. And I would argue that for every example of a brand where it's working, there's probably one or two where it worked and then it didn't.
So I'm interested in your take because honestly, it's sometimes a bit of a controversial take in some ways where there's so many examples of brands taking off by just producing these massive quantities of content that may or may not be valuable to users. Have you seen any data that supports or goes against that take?
[00:12:43] Speaker B: I feel like there's data points kind of on both sides of it. And as anticlimactic as it sounds, it really goes back to that SEO. It depends. And what I mean by that is the bigger and more established of a brand that you are with authority, whether that's deemed by backlinks or just word of mouth, you get the benefit of the doubt for, for indexation and crawling and rankings. So to say you can't do like programmatic SEO or creating content that's even potentially low or little value at scale and it won't work. I don't think it's completely untrue. I think what it is is it's an unsustainable strategy and SEO in 2025 and beyond. I think what we're learning is you used to be able to build a business off the back of SEO. Now the reality is businesses are being made, the brands are growing, you're amplifying and building your super fans, and then as a result of doing that, you get SEO and pax. I know you and I talked offline a little bit about this, but I'd be curious your thought. It feels like it's semantics, you know, one before the other. But really I think the days of a Wayfair starting out as like affiliate website and a nerd wallet that is truly just as much, you know, financial content, I can almost guarantee you nobody can start from scratch and get that success with how Google is set up today.
[00:14:17] Speaker A: No, no, absolutely not. Yeah, I 100% agree with that. You're not going to see the brands that are like built 100% from SEO to begin with.
And it's interesting, I feel like we as an industry or as a practice kind of lost our way a little bit and got blinded by the traffic.
You know, there's this example, I won't say who the brand is, but they're producing just massive amounts of content. And one example is they have an article that is motivational quotes for a Tuesday and then they have another one that is uplifting quotes for a Thursday. And then it's just pages of quotes and they're ranking for it and they're getting traffic from it. And then the CTA is download our complex B2B software and it's like, yeah, you're getting lots of traffic, but is that the right traffic? Are those people converting really? And you know, so it's like we kind of lost in some sense the ultimate goal of what we were trying to get by just trying to get as much traffic and content out there as possible.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: And I'm sure you guys are having similar conversations with your clients as well. But when I'm talking to the C suite or leadership, that is like the first conversation I'm having because again, I'm drawing this sand or line in the sand to say, you know, 2025 is the year of like flat SEO performance being a big win. And I'm referencing that as almost like a traffic KPI. In most instances I am seeing my clients seeing less traffic, but it's not impacting their revenue. So I'm always reminding my clients that it's really hard to pay your electric bill with sessions. It's a lot easier with your revenue. So if revenue is not being impacted, then you should not deem everything being, you know, a dumpster fire in a crazy situation of like Google hates us. Because it goes back to everything that you were just saying. Were you capturing quality traffic or were you capturing just the amount? You know, it's quantity versus quality. And I think if there's anything we've learned from these AI overviews, it's starting to really nickel and dime. What I think is more of the quantity related searches not the quality.
[00:16:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:41] Speaker B: Would you agree?
[00:16:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think to bring that full circle, you talked about the play of starting with SEO and building business off the back of SEO is gone. And I agree with that. I also believe that when you are having success in SEO, we need to remember the people doing SEO, that the goal is to create that community again and continue to build that brand. It's not just the sheer traffic numbers like you were saying. So are we getting the conversions but also are we getting exposure to the right people and is that spreading? Are we hitting them with the right content, the right messaging? Are they having a good experience with the brand? We should be thinking about all of that and not just this one lane, you know, one, one trick that we do. Yeah.
[00:17:29] Speaker B: Pax, I want to get your opinion real quick on this. So here's like a hot take that I've been starting to share with people and I'd be curious what you think. So I basically have been saying, and leaders don't like hearing this, but they get it. If it's not expensive, time consuming or take a lot of resources, 95% of the time, it's not going to provide value for SEO.
And what I mean by that, it's not to say that there aren't technical fixes or quick wins, but I'm talking about sustained year over year growth. You need to address root issues. SEO is not a demand creator. SEO is a demand capture device. So if you have a product or a service that people are complaining about or they don't like it, that is not something SEO can fix. However, getting SEOs involved within your company and that business practice of addressing those product issues, those service issues, that then builds up that brand where you can continue to capture it through organic search. What are your thoughts?
[00:18:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that.
I will say, yeah, I think once things have reached a certain basic level, that's true.
If they're below that, yeah, those quick wins, I think they don't have to be expensive or complicated and you can have some good growth. But assuming basic level.
Yeah, I think, I mean it's about adding true value and adding true value in the end of the day often is expensive from resource and time standpoint.
I did want to talk about that point you made about SEO not being demand creation and I think I agree with that 90% but I want to get your thoughts on this. I've always taught, I used to teach SEO at a university nearby and I would always teach them to think about keywords in, in a, like visualize them in A target. The middle of that target are going to be our money keywords. Those are like, I want to buy your product, give me your product. Now, outside of that are consideration keywords, where we're saying, like, I'm looking for something like this. Tell me about that. So still really valuable. The. The middle and that ring are super high competition. Everybody's going after those, and we should go after those and we should rank for those. But in addition to that, there's going to be outside of those, what are the words that people are searching, what are the things they're looking for before they know they have a problem?
And in that sense, I feel like SEO can help with demand creation, but you have to be very selective about. So again, I'm not saying make motivational quotes for a Tuesday, but I'm saying somebody who wants your product before they know they want it, what needs do they have? HubSpot, I think, is a fantastic example of this. It's not all content about CRMs. It's content about sales plays. Great. Oh, I've got these sales plays. You know what? I need a CRM. I've already been talking to these guys. And so in that sense, it kind of built the brand, but it's connected. It's not so wildly disparate that it just makes no sense that they're producing it. You know, and so I think SEO can, can pull in that traffic and, and begin to help aid in driving demand in a sense where they don't even go to Google anymore because they've already come to you through this other word or need. You know, I'm interested in your thoughts on that.
[00:20:53] Speaker B: I think it's just really important to know your users identify those problems, because like you said, there is a lot of ways to build your brand and visibility off of SEO in the sense of, like you said, those questions, those keywords, they exist and you can capture the demand from each of those, and those continue to expand. What I meant by brand does not build demand, or, sorry, SEO does not build demand, is the sense of, like, you can't. You can only capture as much branded traffic, the name of your company. It's only, you can only capture 100% of what exists. And if you do something great, your brand elevates, you get to capture more. If, you know, electric cars are deemed illegal, guess what? Nobody's going to search for Tesla in six months. And that's a reality. And there's no amount of SEO that can fix that.
Because, like you said, I think there's a Difference. When we talked about those middle keywords, those are really easy to map and say, this is relevant or not. If I sell cars and now we're talking about jewelry, like, that does not work. Right. But if we sell cars and you're writing about tire pressure and the best tires, that makes sense. And I think it's very important to identify where that smaller circle is around your medium ones, because Forbes is a really good example of somebody who just tried to kind of optimize for the Internet. And we used to see this, you know, five or 10 years ago. You would see news sites that would literally have headlines that would just touch on a little bit of everything. Technology, business, love and relationships, you know, and it's like they did that because they wanted to rank for everything and anything. And that's not possible anymore, nor should it be, in my opinion.
[00:22:51] Speaker A: Yeah, interesting. So how. How do you think from a strategy perspective if you, you know, you're the CMO of a company, you're the. The head of marketing, and you're looking at, how am I going to organize my team?
How might you make changes to where SEO sits within a team and how do they interact? That's different than how we've done in the past.
[00:23:15] Speaker B: I love this question, and I really want to hear your answer to this as well. I think SEO needs to be removed from the marketing team, and I know that's going to be surprising to people, but I'm seeing more and more SEOs having success when it can be a part of product again. Product helps establish the products or services and it helps build that brand. Like you're just making foundational changes to the business, whereas everybody in marketing is looking for ways to elevate it and create conversion and, you know, just basically sell it. So that's. That would be my recommendation is if you have an opportunity for your SEO team, whether it's formally or informally, they should absolutely be working with your product team. I think you should be having them work with your traditional branding team because there's so many opportunities where SEO can be impactful, but it has to be baked into building your business and, and no longer viewed as I'm sprinkling the SEO dust on the top after I've done all of this. What do you think?
[00:24:27] Speaker A: I love that. I love that take. I hadn't thought about moving them into product, but that makes sense.
The way that we have been making some shifts here at Nice M Floor is the content marketing teams have largely been responsible for audience research and mapping out audience, like customer Experience, journey mapping, that kind of thing. And we have been getting the SEOs more and more and more involved in audience research and understanding audience because we're finding again that engagement metrics are just extremely important. They send major signals to Google about whether or not this thing should be on the first page or not. And the more an SEO can understand, who are we really trying to reach? Like, who are they? What do they want, what do they care about? How do they think, is this the right thing that we should be doing? Or is there a better strategy here?
We're able to produce, in my opinion, more effective strategies by getting them more involved in that.
I love that.
[00:25:27] Speaker B: And I think, Paxton, you would probably agree too, somebody from a traditional branding POV or even product, they probably have a really good idea of who your direct competitors are. But SEOs are going to understand who your search competitors are, which may only be 50, 50% of who you would normally define.
[00:25:48] Speaker A: Right.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: And you know, I think so everything you said, getting SEO involved, but not necessarily, again, you're not creating content after the products are created. You're not creating content after a service has been announced. You're doing it, you know, like this. And that is where you can lift each other up and you have a service or product that just crushes it from your direct competitor standpoint. But then you're able to leverage those unique value props to be able to rank in Google. And I don't want to go too much into a tangent, but I will say for anybody who's looking to invest in their SEO, one of the things that I'm really hoping we will stop doing in 2025 and it won't happen is everybody looks to do this much more than, than what is currently ranking. Meaning. So a really good example. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Nobody wants to just like completely reinvent things they want to do more. And a really good example. So we're, I'm going to be able to put this to test with my own money and my own time. So with SEO Jobs, I created an SEO interview, mock interview, essentially. So it's a simulator. And the reason that I did that is if you type in SEO interview questions, what you get is you get 10, 20, 30 websites. And you know what it is, whoever's number one has 312 questions and number two is 212. And what they do is they just build off of each other. So what I did is I have 88 questions, but I have an interactive simulator where users can come in and actually click a button to talk into their microphone to answer this. Because we know memorizing SEO facts is 2% of the interview. Being able to articulate yourself is huge. So I'm hoping that I can disrupt that search result in time. I mean, I just launched this thing like a week ago, and now I'm going to be able to rank number one, and my competition is going to look at that and say, I don't want to do what it takes to beat that. Whereas before, if I was at 312 and Paxton, you published your 404, I could come back with 415.
[00:28:08] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:28:09] Speaker B: But it's like, how are you battling with, you know, boulders instead of pebbles?
[00:28:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah. I mean, like, that's what great marketing is. It's giving something that they haven't seen before, not just incrementally building on what's already been done. Uh, I mean, that's going to get you mediocre results at best.
[00:28:29] Speaker B: Uh, and that's what people are doing.
[00:28:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:31] Speaker B: And I think the problem is. And tell me if you disagree.
I think that is the result of not necessarily being lazy. I think that is how it maybe came off. I think, if I'm being completely blunt, I think this is the best that you can get when we are challenging everybody to do more with less.
[00:28:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:53] Speaker B: Because when you don't have money and you don't have resources, it's very difficult to be innovative.
[00:28:59] Speaker A: Yep. Yeah. Our, our philosophy around what makes great marketing, we call it pie, and that's kind of backwards, but it starts with E, which is like empathy. Understanding your customer better than your competitors know them so that you can innovate. That's the. I give them something they haven't seen before, all in the name of. Of converting them and making them into customers. So if you understand them and you innovate, but you don't convert them, that's art, which is great, but that's not marketing.
But if you don't innovate and show them something you haven't seen before, you're not going to profit from that.
And that, that the, the risk is when you innovate, it's risky. Right. Like, am I going to dump 20, 40 grand into this thing that we haven't tried before and no one's tried before? And I get that that's risky. However, there's a way to de risk it. And the way to de risk it is if you understand your audience, if you know them well enough, you know they're going to love this. Even though they haven't seen it, even though nobody's done it. You know, people, seojobs.com what they, they care about and you know, if I can simulate a job interview, that's going to be more effective for them and they're going to love this. I'm confident in it. So you're not just taking these wild swings left and right that are super risky and super expensive. They are calculated Babe Ruth pointing at left field kind of swings. I know I'm going to knock this out of the park before I even take the swing. But you can't do that unless you know the audience first, you know.
[00:30:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that reminds me of two things. One, at the very beginning, you had mentioned message before channel, and I think that is how we de risk it a little bit. Because if you know something is going to be valuable for your user or your customer, it shouldn't matter what channel wins because you're providing that value. So we might come to the table and say, we want to rank for SEO interview questions. Here's what we want to build with the idea that one day we can rank, but we also believe if we never rank for it, Google decides they hate it or we get penalized. Whatever. We feel confident that buying the ads is going to provide us the best user experience. We can market it in our email.
[00:31:19] Speaker A: And et cetera, social people are going to share it.
[00:31:22] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So I think that's one thing I would love your thoughts on. So we know that everybody wants to be as data driven as humanly possible, and I get that, and I love that. But in a world where it's message over channel and we know we need to take risk and we need to be innovative, how do you come back? For leaders that are going to say, well, show me the, you know, the forecast, you know, how many sessions am I going to get, how many leads? You know, it's more of the traditional KPIs that they're looking to justify. How are you guys doing that?
[00:32:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, let me speak on the 97th floor side rather than the work we do for our client, let me talk about our own marketing. And one thing that our marketing team does is we call them customer research interviews, where they just talk to people in our industry and ask them, you know, when you look for an agency, what do you look for? What do you care about? What are you thinking about these days? What are your. What keeps you up at night? And what they do is they record these and they put them in a podcast that gets shared an internal podcast that gets shared with our example executive team. And from there we're able to start to see patterns of, oh, it looks like the industry cares about this, or they're shifting in this way. What they'll also do is take clips from these, these interviews, or sales team will take clips from their sales calls that say, look at these, you know, three people that said X or these seven people that said this. And so it becomes almost painfully obvious that this is a direction we need to move.
In terms of like predictive analysis and its impact, it's more difficult. But at a certain point, you know, as an executive, you just like, I can't ignore that. You know, eight people said that they want this thing from their agency. We got to provide that thing. You know, I just. What impact is gonna. I don't know. It's gonna be good, but I don't know what. But I have to do it, you know, So I think the more we can gather that kind of data and it. And it is maybe a little less data, a little more anecdotal, but showing them the clips, letting them hear the person say the thing from the sales calls or the customer research, I think that's going to be the key to getting the buy off and moving in the direction you need to.
[00:33:31] Speaker B: I think that's phenomenal. And let me throw an idea past you and I'll be curious because I think a lot of people watching this are going to be like, yep, I fall in this boat. Client or 97th floor has a paid budget of a million dollars a month, but within that they have earmarked probably $100,000 in test budget. Test budget doesn't exist for SEO. And there's so many people that view it as like, as long as I can get that ROAS that return on ad spend at my 3 to 1 to account for the full million, I don't care if the hundred thousand wasn't fruitful, because we learned something and that's what I'm trying to encourage. Some leadership is within your SEO investment. Not to say that you should just blindly say yes to everything, but if you're waiting for an ironclad forecast with the perfect AOV and cvr, you know, multiplier to get you that exact revenue dollars, you're not going to take action and you're not going to win. And pax, I think you would agree with this. The number one reason that I see companies fail at SEO is because they don't take action. They just have meetings over and over again about what they should do.
[00:34:46] Speaker A: Fair. Yeah, I agree with that. And we do. We do advertising and we do content and SEO. Those are our three things. So I'm not biased. But don't get me started on the lack of parallels where there should be parallels between the way advertising and SEO are treated. It's maddening the way that those are thought of. Just so different.
[00:35:10] Speaker B: Budget. Yeah.
[00:35:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
We got to wrap up today. Nick, this has been amazing. Tell me, where would you like if people wanted to follow you, how should they follow you?
[00:35:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you again for having me on the show. I'm looking forward to having future chats too. If you want to reach out to me directly, you can either go to my website. Nicknickleroy.com is my email. I'm on X and I'm very frequently on LinkedIn where you can also see the post that we talked about earlier about my hot take on 2025 organic performance. And also check out seoforlunch.com for my weekly SEO newsletter. If you want to stay up to date with all the changes that are happening.
[00:35:55] Speaker A: That's great. Awesome. Yeah, please go follow Nick. Nick, I could sit here and talk for just three more hours easily. So we'd love to have you back to talk more as the year unfolds about changes in the industry and how brands should adapt. So thank you so much for joining us today. I look forward to having you on again.
[00:36:14] Speaker B: Yes, thank you again so much, Paxton. Take care.
[00:36:16] Speaker A: Bye.
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